The way I see it, If they really want to give the movie franchise one more chance, they need to go in a completely differet direction. Something radical like this...a nasty villian, maybe a nasty, bald villian, who's ...hellbent on destroying uh, a whole planet...maybe Earth, and the Enterprise is the only federation ship in the whole sector. Something we've never seen before.

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I didn't see the movie opening weekend--didn't have money, didn't have any way to get to the theatre, finals,--in short I was busy. So I decided to see what the people on the BBS board thought of it, opening weekend we had most of the positive views from people who I think get bored quickly because within another week it was all bad. For weeks I read bad reviews, complaints, ect. So when it finnaly came time to see the movie I was expecting what everyone told me to expect. The plot wasn't going to make sense, the characters would be written out of character, the film would be edited so badly I would get dizzy just watching it and feel horribly confused as to what was going on. It would be a complete rehash of every Star Trek movie yet, emphisis on TWOK, to the extent that I should just watch that instead. I watched the movie. The only thing I could say was 'huh?'.

Yes, the editing wasn't perfect. Yes, the story was very similar to TWOK in a lot of ways. And yes the Enterprise did indeed run on electricity. But you know what I am still very confused because it was no where near the pile of dran that I had been told to expect. Here was a Star Trek movie that for the first time in a very long time was actually trying to say something. No, they didn't say it perfectly--but gosh darn it this movie meant something. I can see now that my expectations for this movie were lowered so much that it probably could never have been as bad as it was billed to be. But I to this day am confused by the response. I read the same complaints over and over again, and yeah they have some merit generally--I rarely see out right lies--and yet the level of exageration that goes on confuses me.

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"...in the end the shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach..."

-Samwise Gamgee looking up at a star through the clouds. J.R.R Tolkien's Lord of the Rings-

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Steve

No offense to you personally, of course, you seem a very well-reasoned fellow and I respect your opinion and your right to it, including your persistant assertions that Nemesis was the best TNG Trek movie and that it had more depth than any TNG Trek film. I disagree, but it's less the opinion of the film that the nature of the disagreement I want to address. I readily admit mine is simply my own opinion, subject to change (perhaps I'll like it more when i see the DVD), while you seem to give almost no leeway in your interpretation of the quality of Nemesis. Not that I expect your every comment to be accompanied with a "IMHO" or something that ridiculous, but (Forgive me if I over-presume here...I'm simply going on my impression of a number of your comments I've read on this board), you seem to have a mindset that Nemesis detractors are mostly either "herd-mentality" folks jumping on the bashing bandwagon or those who have somehow "overlooked" that which you've noticed. (I understand I, in turn, am generalizing here, but it's late and I'm trying to be quick). Now I can only speak for myself, but I wanted to love Nemesis and I just found it wholely unremarkable. Not because I read a bunch of negative reviews, and not because I didn't pay attention at the narrative parallels or the "insightful" speeches, but it was the execution I found lacking.

Nemesis may have attempted and intended more depth than the other TNG films (though I think a case could be made for Generations), but good intentions and the actual result and the ending artistic merit are two separate animals. Just having "parallel" characters and situations and "nature vs. nurture" speeches isn't enough. One could say that Judge Dredd was a "deep" film because it dealt with themes of the ethics of advanced genetics, the stuggle between family loyalty and adherance to the law, and the "parallel" between Dredd as "order" and Rico as "chaos." But it's the execution that comes into play when I form my opinions upon the artistic merit of a film, and in Nemesis, I found the execution lacking. This is just my opinion, of course. I'm simply making the point that there are some of us who have, to the best of our abilities, well-rounded, considerate views that Nemesis came up short, views not based on willful ignorance or fanboy beat-the-dead-carcass whining.

For a time, I couldn't help but think that your opinion may be affected, however even perhaps unconsciously, by the fact that you have read the entire screenplay and can fill in the blanks left by the choppy, action-oriented (IMO) direction of the theatrical cut. For instance, I remember your recent comments that Picard's dune-buggy run was meant to reflect on an earlier remark about feeling restless or needing excitement or something (I apologize, I don't remember exactly) that was left off the theatrical release or something. I'm aware of no such dialogue, and thus Picard's brash decision and apparent blatant prime directive violation comes off to me as inconsistent, foolhardy, and especially gratuitious given that the only payoff was a pointless dune-buggy chase scene.

However, if I remember correctly, I remember you specifically refuted this claim at one point and made clear your opinion rested solely on the theatrical cut as best you could dissociated with the entire screenplay, and I trust you and take your word for it. I just ask that you would give the same consideration to those with differing opinions than yourself. It occurs to me that you seem to have rather prejudged those of us who don't consider Nemesis as good as you do, in your own mind, as bandwagon-bashers or simply unaware or ignorant of aspects of the film you have taken into account and we have not. I have repeated re-analyzed my views and my position and given thought to pro-Nemesis views and, in the end, I simply found it lacking in writing, direction and all-around execution. My opinion, of course, but it is mine, not because of message-board negativity or not taking into account certain aspects of the film, but, (as much as I can) an in-depth analysis, as well as my own gut reaction, of the film as a whole I saw it.

While admitting that perhaps I've merely caught you on "off" days, you seem to have displayed a rather curt, uncompromising and even seemingly close-minded attitude towards those with lesser opinions of Nemesis than yourself. I apologize if it seems as though I myself have prejudged you, but I have not intended it so, as I only post on message boards when I really feel compelled to, and on this particular topic and reading enough of your posts on the matter to feel that I should bring this to your attention.

Feel free to let me have it if you feel I'm out of line. Perhaps I'm mistaken. We live and learn.

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"...who wrote "the moon rules! #1" on my car...with a key." -Carl, Aqua Teen Hunger Force

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Number 1. I think Patrick Stewart just seems more disappointed than anything else, and rightly so, but we all know he can't just open his mouth and blame those that I think he would like to. We've all admired him enough for so long long and knowing what has happened with Nemesis just becomes a disappointment to us all when we come to the realization that we may no longer see these characters again except in our DVD scrapbooks.
If Nemesis had done well I believe we would see many more praising it than knocking it. I myself don't think it was a great send off, because everything is still left open for more adventures. The main problem for us as fans seems to be that the movie seemed rushed at points where it shouldn't have been and dragged on in others.
Every fan knew this movie was coming, so saying they just didn't see it for whatever reason is not the excuse. Sandwiched between so many other huge movies seems to be the real reason. If released a month later, or a month ealier probably would have made all the difference. Also, with DVD's coming as fast as they are you have to create a real Epic sci-fi adventure for people to want to come to the box office. Plus, it must appeal to all audiences, and in the scope of marketing, must look like something you wouldn't want to see anywhere except the big screen. Nemesis was good, but had nothing in it to make it a must see film, not even for Trek fans.
The DVD will help us see what we so missed about this film, and create more of a story for us. Unfortunately we'll all to wait for a special edition to see it as a whole and true to form.
If I could put a plea to Paramount to really create an adventure for the Star Trek TNG crew that everyone must see I know that everyone out there would follow suit, but we know it doesn't work that way. We all have ideas of what would be the perfect adventure, making it happen, well.........
I do think though that if an idea hit with Paramount for an adventure that couldn't be refused I don't think they would turn away from that. The only thing that could give it even a remote possibility is phenominal DVD sales of Nemesis which just go to prove that it really was the release date of the film, and the marketing that set this movie behind Maid in Manhattan (pathetic).
I'll buy the DVD, if a special edition comes, I will buy that too. I do hope that aside from the "powers that be" up there in the studios, that at least the cast all know we admire who they are, and the characters they've portrayed for last 15 years.

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Demnd is created by scarcity. "Franchise faitgue"is just a hollywoodism for an old economics concept: scarcity creates demand because of a decreased supply.

Nemesis, while not the best film, finished our characters honorably. It even sent them somewhere the original crew had never gone before: on with their Starfleet careers with new crews and colleagues. (Imagine if the original STAR TREK had ended with Kirk sailing away with a whole new crew and adventures while Bones stayed behind at Starfleet Medical and Spock had died).

The thing I want most right now is to leave the film franchise be, invest all of the studio's energy into creating the best possible TV experience, and years after that too has come to an end, once all the fans are restless and chomping again at the bits, they can explore a new film to give us all a treat.

---

Worf: Sir, the Federation DOES have enemies. We MUST seek them out!

Picard: Oh yes. That's how it starts. But the road from legitimate suspicion to rampant paranoia is very much shorter than we think. Something is wrong here Mr. Worf.

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The problem I saw with Nemesis is that it was a rehash of every other TNG film with the exception of First Contact. "One weak man attempts to destroy a world for his own personal advantages." Generations did this, Insurrection did this, and Nemesis did this. The villian was a fraile shriveled weakling, who could kill a fly if he tried. He had some never before heard of weapon, which this time unlike in "The Wrath of Khan" had no explanation for its origins or how it works (how is kills).

This film was a reproduction without any understanding of the source it lended from.

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Ok, I know some fans like Steve liked it, and to each thier own, BUT most people just thought it was a poor film. Look at the reviews. It got bad word of mouth from fans, too. I certainly didn't recomend it. Everyone I know that saw it (friends and co-workers) HATED it. The only people I have heard say they liked it are a few fans on the internet, one video store clerk, and Richard Roeper.


Now, I'm a fan of Star Trek 5, so those of you who liked Nemesis please take no offence from my words. I know 5 is concidered bad, too. My point is it's ok to like a movie that everyone else doesn't (as I do with 5). We are all entitled to our opinion. Still, when the rest of the world says it's bad you have to except that it must be the movie itself.

---

"New Jersey Girl, New Jersey Girl
Come on and rock my world
New Jersey Girl, New Jersey Girl
I wanna love you
New Jersey Girl, New Jersey Girl
With your crazy f**ked up hair
New Jersey Girl, New Jersey Girl
Your wicked awesome!"
-Nerf Herder

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I have the perfect solution... some of you may not like it, but here it goes: A brand-new, decent TNG flick IS possible--but only if they release it TEN years from now. I can only speak from my own personal standpoint, but as I watched NEMESIS in the theaters, it finally hit me... I was totally bored with these characters. Picard, Riker, Troi, Data, et al. And I realized why. Unlike the TOS crew, which only had three original seasons and then a ten-year gap before their first film launched, the TNG crew had SEVEN consecutive seasons and then went right into film production. Even though they waited four years between NEMESIS and INSURRECTION, the sad fact is that we've been constantly exposed to TNG actors, crew and concepts for the past 15 YEARS STRAIGHT. That's a lot to ask of anyone. I'm simply TIRED of seeing them, and they LOOK tired, too. I've sure we haven't seen the last of the TNG crew, but in order to nail one out of the park, they need to go away for a long time, dump B&B (their time is up, people), and yes, maybe even get rid of Data, as he seems to hog-up all the screen time from everyone else in the films (and honestly, haven't we had ENOUGH Data stories?). You need to leave fans wanting more, but after NEMESIS I got the feeling I'd seen enough! We have enough STAR TREK to fill a 24-hour cable channel all it's own... you could watch reruns ad infinitum for the next ten years to keep you busy, and/or read all the novels and comic books on the weekends. Is it really necessary to have brand-new TREK every year? I know these are cliches, but think about them for a moment, and then apply them to STAR TREK: "Familiarity breeds contempt" and "Absence makes the heart grow fonder." Is asking for a TREK moratorium, in the end, really such a bad idea? Curious as to what other fans think...

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Nemesis wasn't a BAD film. Neither was it a good film. It had the potential to be excellent. Yes, the release date was wrong. I think having the script leaked over a year before release was also a terrible blow to the film - it had been picked apart before it even had a chance. The surprise element had gone.

I think if Jonathan Frakes, or someone familiar with what makes Star Trek work, had been given Nemesis, it would've been far, far better. As it was, Stuart Baird, whilst an accomplished director, was too far removed from the Star Trek universe to do the film's script justice. One might take his referral to Geordi LaForge as an "alien" as a case in point.

He wasn't the only issue, though. The film was badly marketed. The artwork on the poster is poorly conceived and uninteresting, despite the unfolding Nemesis logo at the end of the film's various trailers being outstanding. Why then, didn't we see this logo at the start of the film? The opening credits were plain white and inconsistent with the eerie green motif we had already been introduced to. It smacked of inconsistency.

The villain was a great idea, but again, poorly executed. Tom Hardy just didn't have the charisma to carry off such a powerful and threatening character. I can't believe how long they claim to have spent casting him! He came across more like a confused, angst-ridden teenager than someone who might present a real challenge to the Federation. He didn't have the maturity. His Shinzon just couldn't stand up to Stewart's Picard. And despite the prosthetics, he just didn't LOOK enough like him!

Set design was lacking. What was that Sickbay? And what happened to Stellar Cartography? Remember that incredible set in Generations? Or even Astrometrics on Voyager! Yet on the new Federation flagship all we now have is a small, dark room with one tiny viewscreen. How utterly disappointing and thoughtless on the part of the production design crew. And the lighting design was all but absent. Watch First Contact, and then watch Nemesis, and you'll see the difference. Look at the bridge scenes in particular. What comes across is that in First Contact, there is atmosphere. Dark, moody lighting creates contrast and emotion on the set - the bridge looks fantastic. Then look at the bridge scenes in Nemesis. They look as if they've been lit with fluorescent tube lighting, like the kind you get in school classrooms! Flat, white lighting. There's no contrast. It's uninteresting.

There was also a lack of locations in the film, which lost it its epic quality. The whole thing takes place on two ships, with only a couple of scenes at the beginning on Romulus, Earth and Kolarus. If to imbue the film with this sense of claustrophobia was John Logan's intention, it didn't come off too well.

As has been said before, the editing was poor. We missed out on all those "Trek" moments. The Captain's Log voiceovers, the turbolift scenes, etc. Not one. And some of the best character-driven scenes were left on the cutting-room floor. The Picard/Data scene where they drink wine and talk life and death. The Worf/Geordi visit to Data's quarters at the end of the film where Worf adopts Spot. In the book, Worf has his life saved by a Romulan doctor at the end, and it forces him to reassess some of his prejudices. This was again absent. I wonder if this is because the intention was to make this an action film and therefore leave out some of the best character moments. If this is the case, it is unfortunate. Star Trek has always been driven by characters, with action coming a close second. Right from its humble beginnings, the inseparable trio of Kirk, Spock and McCoy, and that close-knit friendship they shared, was what pushed Trek along. For the studio to lose sight of that is fatal.

Jerry Goldmsith's score fails on many counts and is largely uninspiring. Only once or twice does it recapture the grandeur of his original theme, and the hope and excitement that that produced. One moment is "Final Flight" when Data leaps out of the Enterprise into space. The music filled me with hope all of a sudden and touched on something that was classic Trek, before getting itself lost again. The second time I remember getting excited was the scene in drydock at the end when Goldsmith's original Motion Picture theme crept in, if only for a few seconds, only to fade into something else indistinct. What a shame it didn't have the courage to hang on a bit longer.

Despite all of these flaws, the fact remains that the material of Nemesis had the potential to be so much better. There are some excellent moments in the film. The special effects are beyond reproach and the battle scenes in space are magnificent. It almost looks as if all the money went into those scenes, and the sets were neglected.

To top it all off, Stuart Baird has no interest in rectifying any of these problems, perhaps because he doesn't care about Trek, or perhaps because he doesn't want to admit that Nemesis, like The Final Frontier, is an incomplete film with many problems, but a film which could be so much stronger if treated properly.

Sadly, it's mostly about money these days, and less about art. If Paramount doesn't see dollar signs in the release of a Director's Edition of Nemesis, it's not going to happen, regardless of whether or not it OUGHT to happen. I for one would love to see some of these problems fixed, so that justice can be done to a film which really didn't deserve to fail in the way that it did.

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I just want to echo sentiments of others below: NEMESIS was good, despite the pack-reviewing phenomenon that occurred, the fan base is not the reason why NEMESIS bombed in theaters. Nothing stood a chance 5 days before THE TWO TOWERS. Perhaps the DVD will be a huge hit, proving that the franchise is not "fatigued." It is the #2 pre-order on Amazon, after all...

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-Steve Krutzler
==V/-/== Rocks

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No matter if Nemsis tanked, if enterprise is going to be the last nail in star trek coffin you would always be the best, well-acted and most accomplished Captain of any Star Trek series. No matter how much Sisko & Archer turns me off, your potrayl of Captain Picard will always be remebered by me with passion and praise

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"Lets make sure that history never forgets the name, Enterprise"- Captain Jean-luc Picard

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It's not franchise fatigue it's creative fatigue.
Star Trek is inherently unlimited. Adventures abound in a universe which: is unimaginably vast, in parallel dimensions, in subspace, in Demon Class planetary systems, in variable gravity, in alternate realities. In these varied settings encounters with aliens that are: corporeal, non-corporeal, silicon-based lifeforms, photonic life-forms, pure energy, green jello aliens, really *alien* aliens, etc. Alien technology: bizarre and byzantine alien ships, new alien weaponry, holotechnology, nanotechnology, replicator-like technology-the universe is the limit! If the writers can dream it, CGI can create it-anything goes!

The writers can use these new settings, aliens, technology, etc. to weave Star Trek-like tales of human beings overcoming their limitations and striving for a better tomorrow as they explore the infinite universe.



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"The Force will be with you...Always."
Obi-Wan Kenobi

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It WAS their best movie. By far. The main problem with it was the morons at Paramount who thought it would be a good idea to release it a mere five days before The Two Towers opened. How they thought they could take on the biggest juggernaut of the year, I don't know.

I would have seen Nemesis more times myself if it hadn't opened against TTT, and so would a number of my friends. And I know some people on limited budgets who get to see about one movie a month, and TTT won out over Nemesis.

The release date was the film's biggest killer, and it's annoying that B&B and Paramount can't see that.

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PS: All of us haven't quite recovered from the dismay of finding that our audience just seem to have drifted away. The studio called it franchise fatigue.

Franchise fatigue? The audience drifted away? Is there -anyone- associated with Nemesis who is willing to acknowledge that it might just be that people didn't like the movie?

Don't get me wrong. I thought Nemesis was a good movie... certainly better than the box office receipts would indicate. But, c'mon, when a movie tanks that badly, certainly you have to consider explanations other than that just the audience has disappeared.

Perhaps it's still too close to the release of the movie for those involved to feel they can speak in a completely candid way. But it seems like everything we're hearing is how the audience has dried up, is no longer interested in Trek, etc. and no discussion of "what might have been wrong with this film that the audience didn't like, and how could we make a better one."

Take care!

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=Tom=

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